Curse

Taurus · May 10, 2008, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Tip for you all : pull the stick out of yer rear ends.

Edit : My advice to the mod, close this.

mafia cyborg · May 10, 2008, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

If their latest attempts were 'balance' updates, then I would say that no, we aren't getting any new balance updates.

the last patch (the one reverted for fear of pve farmers backlash) was the best skill balance in a long time.
now we're left with the previous dumb patch .....

DreamWind · May 10, 2008, 06:44 AM // 06:44

The reason the PvE vs PvP divide exists? Arenanet. They created it. Plain and simple. I have explained it many times and I will again if people don't believe me.

Dark Imperial · May 10, 2008, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Top PvP players are better than any other players in the world.

Why do you not understand this?

Accept it and move on

I've seen top PvP players fail at Urgoz Warren Elite Mission.(this is going the old way not with ursan.) So how can they be better than other players?

HuntMaster Avatar · May 10, 2008, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Soul Wedding/Tommy are the best monks of all time, better than any PvE monk.

Please prove that wrong.

I see no proof of them being the best. Since you have never witnessed every single pve monk I guess you have no idea what you are talking about. I could spout names too.

Master Rhys Mason is the greatest monk of all time, better than any pvp monk.

Please prove that wrong.

Genius Was Revrac · May 10, 2008, 09:19 AM // 09:19

PvP- Started as the backbone of GW's but is slowly losing favor due to lack of updates, skill nerfs, and dedicated PvP'ers moving on. PvP requires attention to detail and thinking on the fly that most PvE players lack.

PvE-Started out small but has grown exponentially as A-Net continues to favor this aspect of GW's. Requires coordination but less so then PvP and 1 good leader can pull a team through any Elite mission.

I play both and I am the guild leader of an ELite PvE guild in the LoD alliance. I believe that if ppl from both genres can realize that this is just a game and that nothing can be proven in texting battles but actually seeing the person in action is the only way to prove a players worth. So next time you go and start flaming a PvE or PvP player because you dislike one or the other.....give the person a chance to fail first.

Avarre · May 10, 2008, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

I think the DVDF UW competition proved that theory.

The one problem with this argument is that PvE does not change. You are executing a known plan against known enemies. The best PvE team could be replaced with bots as at their most efficient, they are just mechanically cleaning group by group.

PvP requires in-game adaptation and strategic ability as your opponent can adjust tactics. That alone puts it above any area currently in PvE.

A PvE group that does a PvE area repeatedly will be better than a PvP group that has less experience in the area, simply because the PvE group will have better map knowledge and information about how to run over the groups. This makes them good at the area, but being good at Guild Wars is more than designing a group to run over a single, practiced zone.

In the same way, PvP players that use a single build and tactic, or map, to win aren't usually considered good players (rit spike on Jade Isle, anyone?).

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The reason the PvE vs PvP divide exists? Arenanet.

Correct. ANet's pandering to players who want PvE and PvP separate by introducing PvE-only concepts is what is creating the divide. Even so, most PvP players play PvE anyways, so the only real 'divide' is the players who refuse to PvP for whatever reason.

It's PvE-only players vs GW players. And similarly to PvE-only skills and standard skills, one of those groups is more wholesome for game cohesion overall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

I see no proof of them being the best.

The reason they are the best is because they win. They win at something that actually takes skill, in situations where there is more pressure (EvIL in GWWC/FC, etc). While some may disagree (I know people who believe One Star to be superior to Soul) the general idea is the same - their accomplishments speak for themselves.

Surena · May 10, 2008, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

I see no proof of them being the best. Since you have never witnessed every single pve monk I guess you have no idea what you are talking about. I could spout names too.

Master Rhys Mason is the greatest monk of all time, better than any pvp monk.

Please prove that wrong.

Did he play GvG at highly competitive levels?

If not, then good game and au revoir.

Angelic Upstart · May 10, 2008, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

People fear what they do not understand.

People get pissed off with hearing insults like PvE scrub , PvE takes no skill etc, well whatever, i for one will be glad if the attitude that exists from those PvPers, that feel they have to put people down to make themselves feel better and who that look down at all players gets separated im sick to death of hearing it tbh.

That may be true Hawk about real life matters or may have been true in the dark ages but this is a game and beleive me there is nothing to fear in it. lol

C2K · May 10, 2008, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

I see no proof of them being the best. Since you have never witnessed every single pve monk I guess you have no idea what you are talking about. I could spout names too.

Master Rhys Mason is the greatest monk of all time, better than any pvp monk.

Please prove that wrong.

I bet if he gets knocked down, he would rage at his teammates and leave the game. Top level GvG monks are always under immense pressure to protect their team as well as keep their own head. PvE monking is keeping up Healer's Boon and spamming heals. I know because my Heroes do a pretty good job for me in Hard Mode

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelic Upstart

People get pissed off with hearing insults like PvE scrub , PvE takes no skill etc, well whatever, i for one will be glad if the attitude that exists from those PvPers, that feel they have to put people down to make themselves feel better and who that look down at all players gets separated im sick to death of hearing it tbh.

Thats a fair request, but segregating the skills is only going to make the insults worse, because now the skills do totally different things depending where you are.

arcanemacabre · May 10, 2008, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

Thats a fair request, but segregating the skills is only going to make the insults worse, because now the skills do totally different things depending where you are.

Then that makes the insults that much more pointless. It's effectively two different games at this point. It would be like Counterstrike players insulting GTA4 players.

...and I bet they do, too. Wonderful world, this internetz.

Res Ipsi · May 10, 2008, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Fine. There's a reason that Soul Wedding played for EvIL and some DVDF monk did not.

Now look who's being silly. I play hockey. Why would a soccer team be interested in my slap shot?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

But in no way is PvE even comparably as difficult as PvP.

Who said it was?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

The best players in the best PvE guild will have nothing skill-wise on the best players in the best PvP guild.

I await the results of the study you conducted to come to this conclusion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Get over it, move on, accept it.

I accept that you've proven nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

A PvE group that does a PvE area repeatedly will be better than a PvP group that has less experience in the area, simply because the PvE group will have better map knowledge and information about how to run over the groups. This makes them good at the area, but being good at Guild Wars is more than designing a group to run over a single, practiced zone.

You bring up a good point - experience. PvE players won't be as good in a PvP environment as a diehard PvP'r for the same reason. As for the ability to "think on the fly", which proponents of PvP assume is the great dividing point between PvE and PvP skill - there's plenty of that required when playing with a very bad pug in most high end areas.

Avarre · May 10, 2008, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

Now look who's being silly. I play hockey. Why would a soccer team be interested in my slap shot?

Irrelevant analogy, both play GUILD WARS. The choice of one to not engage in the full part of the game makes them an incomplete player, and doesn't somehow excuse them for not having the skills other players do.

Quote:

I await the results of the study you conducted to come to this conclusion.

You cannot possibly be trying to make this point. Please, for the sake of all guru, tell me you are even considering that players from Te, EvIL, WM, iQ, EW, etc are comparable in skill to PvE players.

Quote:

You bring up a good point - experience. PvE players won't be as good in a PvP environment as a diehard PvP'r for the same reason. As for the ability to "think on the fly", which proponents of PvP assume is the great dividing point between PvE and PvP skill - there's plenty of that required when playing with a very bad pug in most high end areas.

PvE does not require tactical thought on the level of PvP. Trying to make that point only shows a lack of experience in upper-tier PvP. At the most, PvE requires an adaptation to your team's situation, but no matter what happens the enemy functions as a constant. The mindless antics of mobs to kill a team are absolutely nothing compared to focused PvP pressure, and functioning micro and macro under that is an entirely different level.

quickmonty · May 10, 2008, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Summing up what I have read here so far:

PvP requires skill. PvE is 'button mashing' against dumb AI.

Therefore, PvP players are soooo much better than PvE scrubs.

Who cares? Does that make you a better person? Will that pay your bills? Is "how fantastic I am at GW" going to make your life better?

Get over it. It's a game. Have fun playing. Too many of you take this all too seriously.

Disclaimer: Not pointing fingers at one side or the other. If the shoe fits, wear it.

Aera Lure · May 10, 2008, 01:38 PM // 13:38

I love both PvE and PvP. The problem I have had with PvP was stated earlier in the thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Go to H&H and tell people you are rank 1 wanting to learn the PvP game, and then see what happens. Now go to any PvE starting area and start LFG.

I dont take issue with the statement that PvP requires more skill than PvE. It does. PvE on the other hand requires a bit more experience with PvE to learn tendencies and the ways to defeat an area as quickly as possible (assuming no UB and consumables), as well as some knowledge of builds more effective in certain areas etc.

What I do take issue with is try and go into any PvP setting and announce yourself as still learning PvP. Heck, dont even announce it. They'll figure that out soon enough. Take stock of what they then say. Do the same in a PvE setting and see what happens.

You'll notice the difference in attitude. Its even present here in this thread. Even though I'd agree with the statement below, its not stated in a way that leaves unnecessary attitude behind:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Soul Wedding/Tommy are the best monks of all time, better than any PvE monk.

Please prove that wrong.

Now, as with anything, its not always true. My longest running friends on my friends list, some of the nicest people I have ever met, are pure PvPers. Speaking generally here, since we all know people on both sides who dont perpetuate a rift.

Avarre · May 10, 2008, 01:45 PM // 13:45

The difference in attitude is most largely attributed to the competitive aspect of PvP. Restarting in PvE isn't really losing - there's no-one to lose to for the most part. PvE is all about the repetition, and it doesn't mean much. Losing in PvP has a bigger negative connotation, and people don't like to lose to someone else, especially when it's caused by someone playing bad.

Of course among the playerbase, you'll find players who are more easygoing and others who have much less pleasant attitudes, in all areas.

Rocky Raccoon · May 10, 2008, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Soul Wedding/Tommy are the best monks of all time, better than any PvE monk.

Please prove that wrong.

Who really cares? I play because I enjoy the game not to be praised for my "super skill".

RiKio · May 10, 2008, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

PvErs cannot accept the fact that PvP takes more skill, and therefore, call the competitive players "Elitist" to give them a bad image.

Quote:

This Devil's Advocate bullshit is annoying. In PvE you're playing against a set environment with set creatures with set skills with predictable reactions and so on. You can predict virtually the entire playing field, and thus be equipped to deal with it as perfectly as possible. You can manage aggro, control it, etc.

In PvP, you can assume that the other team will run balanced or a gimmick. Let's say they run balanced. You can't control their aggro; if they don't enjoy being body blocked by you, they'll simply kill you. It takes much more skill to monk against a warrior quarterknocking the stuffing out of you than to powerheal through a bunch of EotN monster skills inflicting Deep Wound, 120 damage, and Bleeding.

I can play vs. Bots in Starcraft all day to my heart's content. The bots in SC are fairly similar to GW AI - exact same patterns. When I go up against some human player, expecting to play like I do against a bot, I'm going to get thrashed. The same applies to Guild Wars.

PvE is good for the game. You get shiny weapons, silly quests, story, etc. But in no way is PvE even comparably as difficult as PvP. The best players in the best PvE guild will have nothing skill-wise on the best players in the best PvP guild.

Get over it, move on, accept it.

These answer pretty sum up what I think about this topic.

PvE is fighting against dumb, predictable AI. Unless you are in High*coughursan*End PvE, you can even go with a naked wammo and pwn teh m1ghty monstas.

PvP requieres coordination. PvP requieres moar intelligence. PvP is competitive and elitist. Thats why the PvPers have a monster-like image when seen on PvE.

Res Ipsi · May 10, 2008, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Irrelevant analogy, both play GUILD WARS. The choice of one to not engage in the full part of the game makes them an incomplete player, and doesn't somehow excuse them for not having the skills other players do.

A matter of opinion. I can't speak for others who play this game, but my playing PvE exclusively does not make me an "incomplete player". I am good at the style I choose to play - it doesn't automatically mean I'd suck at playing another. I lack experience at PvP, not "skill".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You cannot possibly be trying to make this point. Please, for the sake of all guru, tell me you are even considering that players from Te, EvIL, WM, iQ, EW, etc are comparable in skill to PvE players.

No, I'm saying that without assessing the abilities of every PvE player out there, your statement that only PvP players are skilled is based on arrogance, not fact. I just find it odd that some PvP players feel the need to belittle the playing abilities of everyone who chooses to play PvE - not because we suck at PvP, but because we prefer a different play style.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

PvE does not require tactical thought on the level of PvP. Trying to make that point only shows a lack of experience in upper-tier PvP. At the most, PvE requires an adaptation to your team's situation, but no matter what happens the enemy functions as a constant. The mindless antics of mobs to kill a team are absolutely nothing compared to focused PvP pressure, and functioning micro and macro under that is an entirely different level.

The mindless antics of PvE mobs is compensated for by their overpowered skills and sheer numbers. We're talking apples and oranges here. Each context (PvE vs. PvP) requires a unique style of playing - that doesn't mean one is inherently superior.

ETA: Lacking a Ph.D. doesn't mean you're stupid, and having one doesn't mean you're smart. That's how I see this whole PvE vs. PvP skill debate.

Taurucis · May 10, 2008, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Judging from a good chunk of the replies on this thread, I think arrogance and attitude is what makes PvE players hate PvP players.

No one wants to play a game so that they can be insulted, harassed, and made fun of by jerks who believe they're superior.

Even though not 100% of PvP players are rude and arrogant, a majority of them are... which is the main turn off for most people trying to start pvp. The "holier-than-thou-because-I-PvP" attitude doesn't help at all.